Since I am rarely prepared to give a journalist the benefit of the doubt when it comes to his or her objectivity or fairness, I have prepared three possible answers to Mr. Keller’s questions. Also, I am assuming these questions are directed at Christians only, for reasons too obvious to explain:
1. Is it fair to question presidential candidates about details of their faith?
a. Yes, assuming it is a fair-minded attempt to accumulate either biographical information—better insight into what has informed a candidate’s worldview—or to determine whether answers to questions that faith provides are also answers to questions most people assume science or history or common sense provides.
b. No, because that is private, and you’re only trying to ridicule me and thereby discourage other Christians from running for public office, which is their right.
c. Don’t worry, Bill: I’m an atheist just like Than Shwe.
2. Is it fair to question candidates about controversial remarks made by their pastors, mentors, close associates or thinkers whose books they recommend?
a. Yes, assuming it is, again, to get a better idea of what has influenced candidates’ thinking and whether they can think for themselves. If the questioner believes every Christian takes as Holy Writ every word that drops from a minister’s or priest’s lips, or for that matter, that drops out of text written by Martin Luther, John Calvin—or, God help us, John Hagee—then he is an idiot and should probably not be asking these questions of anyone.
b. No, because what goes on within the walls of a church is fit only for members/believers, and can only be misconstrued by outsiders.
c. Don’t worry, Bill: I’m an atheist just Benito Mussolini.
3. (a) Do you agree with those religious leaders who say that America is a “Christian nation” or “Judeo-Christian nation?” (b) What does that mean in practice?
a. No, if by that you mean there is a national creed to which all good citizens—and candidates for elected offer—must adhere. Christianity is a faith for persons, not governments. But with that said, it must simultaneously be acknowledged that many of the founders—Patrick Henry, George Mason, Benjamin Rush, John Witherspoon—and the overwhelming majority of American citizens have been and continue to be Christians of one denomination or another, which means that the broad lineaments of the Christian faith remain important guidelines for the U.S. citizenry in how they live their lives.
b. Yes, because it is the only way to protect freedom of religion from people like you.
c. Don’t worry, Bill: I’m an atheist just like Timothy McVeigh when he blew up the Murrah Federal Building.
4. If you encounter a conflict between your faith and the Constitution and laws of the United States, how would you resolve it? Has that happened, in your experience?
a. By either adhering to the Constitution and laws of the United States or changing them so that you will stop killing the little babies. Yes, which is why I both believe in the separation of church and state, and vote.
b. By adhering to my conscience. Remember the Germans of the 1930s, who put law before conscience. Yes, but I never talk about it. Cognitive dissonance kills.
c. Don’t worry, Bill: I’m an atheist just like both Jacques Hebert and Napoleon Bonaparte.
5. (a) Would you have any hesitation about appointing a Muslim to the federal bench? (b) What about an atheist?
a. As to a Muslim, no, if he or she did not advocate Shariah law. As to the atheist, I probably already have. I don’t have religious litmus tests like some people.
b. Never. The Muslims will attempt to raise a mighty army to take control of the nation’s Capitol and kill everyone who does not convert to Islam. I’ve never met a real atheist.
c. Don’t worry, Bill: I’m an atheist just like Jeffrey Dahmer when he ate all those people.
6. Are Mormons Christians, in your view? Should the fact that Mitt Romney and Jon Huntsman are Mormons influence how we think of them as candidates?
1. No. Christianity as a faith distinct from Judaism has a discernible history, including a theological history. That history begins in the middle of the first century (although, it is rooted in the Hebrew Bible, which is much older). That history clearly states that Christians believe in one God in three persons–Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. Light from light, very God from very God. Mormons reject this. Mormonism is one of several new religions born in the 19th century. It is a quasi-Christian sect, like Christian Science and the Jehovah’s Witnesses. They may be fine people and fine citizens. They should be free to practice their religion without interference, so long as they are subject to the same laws as everyone else. Just because someone says he’s a journalist does not make him one. Uh, I meant Christian. Just because someone says he’s a Christian… As for Romney and Huntsman, only if they believe that their faith or their church should somehow be granted special status or its doctrines enshrined in civil law.
b. No. But then neither are Catholics or Eastern Orthodox, so that doesn’t make me an anti-Mormon bigot.
c. Don’t worry, Bill: I’m an atheist, just like Pol Pot.
7. What do you think of the evangelical Christian movement known as Dominionism and the idea that Christians, and only Christians, should hold dominion over the secular institutions of the earth?
a. It’s poop.
b. We already do. You’d know that if you were a Christian.
c. Don’t worry, Bill: I’m an atheist, just like Josef Stalin.
8. (a) What is your attitude toward the theory of evolution? (b) Do you believe it should be taught in public schools?
a. My attitude is that those facts that are generally agreed upon should be taught in the context of the sciences but that teachers have no business importing their religious beliefs into the classroom, for example, telling students that we now know there is no God based on the fossil record, or that anyone who espouses a faith in the Divine is a threat to the republic. It should be taught in public schools but not until students have been taught to read and count. And good luck with that.
b. My attitude is that it remains controversial enough as to its factual basis that it should be either ignored in favor of other useful subjects or countered with some form of intelligent design theory. The chance that students will leave school believing they are the products of mere cosmological/biochemical accidents, and therefore without purpose and meaning–and without an ultimate judge–can lead only to chaos and despair, which is a form of abuse.
c. Don’t worry, Bill: I’m an atheist who thinks society should be built on sound scientific principles, like eugenics and lysenkoism.
9. Do you believe it is proper for teachers to lead students in prayer in public schools?
a. No. It can only be one of those “To whom it may concern” prayers, which is worse than no prayer at all. Even if sectarian, it can only be implicitly coercive in regard to non-adherents. Parents who want their children to pray in school should either put them in parochial schools or make sure they are supplied with plenty of pop quizzes. They’ll be plenty of praying.
b. Yes. It acknowledges that even Teacher has a master.
c. Don’t worry, Bill: I’m an atheist just like Madalyn Murray-O’Hair.
Now for the Sacramone Questionnaire for Nontheists:
1. Do you think that anyone who believes in the supernatural is delusional? If so, do you believe they should be treated medically? Do you believe they should be allowed to adopt children?
2. Do you think anyone who believes in six-day special creation should ipso facto be barred from holding public office?
3. Do you believe the religious beliefs of historical figures should be eradicated when discussing them in schools? For example, that Louis Pasteur was a devout Catholic who prayed the Rosary daily?
4. Do you believe that the religious faith of those responsible for the birth of modern science—Galileo, Copernicus, Robert Boyle, Isaac Newton, Gregor Mendel, George LeMaitre (father of the theory of the big bang), Jesuit priests too numerous to mention, et al.—should be eradicated when discussing them in schools?
5. Do you believe that it should be noted that the rise of modern science occurred in the context of a civilization that was still explicitly Christian when teaching either European history of the history of science?
6. Do you think homeschooling should be illegal, as it is in some European countries?
7. Do you believe vaccines are a factor in the rise of autism cases? Do you believe parents should be allowed to opt out of vaccine programs?
8. Do you believe that climate-change skepticism is the equivalent of Holocaust denialism or racism?
9. Do you believe churches and all religious institutions should be taxed?
10. Do you believe that there is such a thing as life unworthy of life? Explain.
11. Do you believe assisted suicide and euthanasia should be made legal either on a state-by-state basis or by federal fiat?
12. Do you believe infanticide should be made legal? If not, when is a baby a human being protected by the rights any other human being enjoys?
13. Is there any point when an adult human being loses the right to life? If so, under what circumstances?
14. Do you believe polygamous marriage should be legalized, either on a state-by-state basis or by federal fiat? Do you believe that “minor-attracted adults” should be protected by law as a perfectly valid expression of human sexuality that was much more common in ancient Europe and among non-Western cultures? Do you believe incest and/or bestiality should be protected by law as perfectly valid expressions of human sexuality?
15. Do you believe that individuals are ultimately responsible for their behavior, or do you believe they are subject to too many internal (biochemical, psychological) and external (social pressures, strange belief systems) factors to be held accountable, such that many of our criminal laws should be seriously reformed or eradicated?
ADDENDUM: Based on some of the comments I have received, including some submitted privately, allow me to reiterate the point I made in the very first question: It is perfectly legitimate to ask candidates about their religion if done in good faith, pun somewhat intended—especially if a candidate has emphasized the role faith plays in his or her life. I would go even further and say that if a candidate has said publicly that he believes God told him to run for office, it is incumbent upon journalists—hell, even supporters—to ask, “Really? And how exactly did God tell you? Did you hear a voice? Does this mean you will inevitably win? Does God speak to you about other issues in this way?” Pat Robertson, when he ran for president in 1988, stated explicitly on The 700 Club (I was watching when he said it to Ben Kinchlow) that he believed God was telling him to run. Now maybe God wanted to humble Robertson by setting him up for failure. Or the man is/was privy to a kind of special revelation the overwhelming majority of Christians believe ENDED with the death of the last apostle. But it was certainly something journalists, opponents, AND supporters should certainly have asked hard questions about.
I didn’t ask my mechanic whether he was a Christian. I didn’t ask my dentist. I didn’t ask the guy who installed my Verizon FIOS setup. (Time Warner Cable is a satanic cabal, I know that.) There is a practical knowledge, as well as a kind of wisdom, that is to be gleaned from humdrum earthly study of secular materials, and subjects on which the Bible and systematics are silent. As C.S. Lewis wrote:
…Modern Industry is a subject of which I know nothing at all. But for that very reason it may illustrate what Christianity, in my opinion, does and does not do. Christianity does not replace the technical. When it tells you to feed the hungry it doesn’t give you lessons in cookery. If you want to learn that, you must go to a cook rather than a Christian. If you are not a professional Economist and have no experience of Industry, simply being a Christian won’t give you the answer to industrial problems. My own idea is that modern industry is a radically hopeless system. You can improve wages, hours, conditions, etc., but all that doesn’t cure the deepest trouble: i.e., that numbers of people are kept all their lives doing dull repetition work which gives no full play to their faculties. How that is to be overcome, I do not know. If a single country abandoned the system it would merely fall a prey to the other countries which hadn’t abandoned it. I don’t know the solution: that is not the kind of thing Christianity teaches a person like me. Let’s now carry on with the questions.
“Answers to Questions on Christianity,” God in the Dock (Eerdmans: 1970) 48.
BUT, when Bill Keller begins this discussion by at least implicitly comparing religious faith to a belief in the existence in space aliens, you know good and well that there’s another agenda at work here, and it’s not one rooted in good faith.
Anthony Sacramone
August 29, 2011 at 8:29 PM
That’s very kind. Thank you.
Ogrepete
August 29, 2011 at 10:22 PM
Mr. Sacramone.
Thank you for your response to my earlier question (your response on 8/29/11 @ 2:37 pm).
What was it in the questions (obviously not asked in full faith by NYT’s Bill Keller) that indicated to you that the responses to questions #3 and #6 should come from different perspectives? Or was it just your idea to give the word “Christian” two different meanings in the same set of questions & answers?
humble servant
August 29, 2011 at 10:27 PM
Again, the problem comes back to the nature of God. Christian belief clearly states that God and Jesus are the same being. God humbled Himself and came to earth, to save mankind and to fulfill prophecy. Ezekial 37:24 “My servant David will be king over them and they will all have one Shepherd; they will walk in My ordinances, and keep My statutes and observe them” and again in Zechariah 13:7 ” Awake, o sword against my Shephard against the Man of My fellowhip, declares the Lord of hosts.” A shephard does not only guard his sheep, he shows them the way to go. God came to show us how to live, He came to be the ultimate Rabbi, the definitive Teacher. So, when God as Jesus is talking to Himself, He does it, not for His own benefit, but rather, for ours. He is our living example.
And, it is not only others that claim that Jesus is God- JESUS claimed He was God. ON MANY OCCASIONS. Only a few examples:
John 10:30 I and the Father are One (the Greek word translated here, heis, as One, means The One, the actual same- not one in spirit, not kind of like one another, the actual One and Only)
John 10:38-
But if I do it, even though you do not believe me, believe the miracles, that you may know and understand that the Father is in me, and I in the Father.” (en-the interior of the whole, occupying the same space)
John 17:11 I will remain in the world no longer, but they are still in the world, and I am coming to you. Holy Father, protect them by the power of your name–the name you gave me–so that they may be one as we are one. (again, the Greek word heis)
As CS Lewis said “I am trying here to prevent anyone saying the really foolish thing that people often say about Him: I’m ready to accept Jesus as a great moral teacher, but I don’t accept his claim to be God. That is the one thing we must not say. A man who was merely a man and said the sort of things Jesus said would not be a great moral teacher. He would either be a lunatic — on the level with the man who says he is a poached egg — or else he would be the Devil of Hell. You must make your choice. Either this man was, and is, the Son of God, or else a madman or something worse. You can shut him up for a fool, you can spit at him and kill him as a demon or you can fall at his feet and call him Lord and God, but let us not come with any patronising nonsense about his being a great human teacher. He has not left that open to us. He did not intend to. … Now it seems to me obvious that He was neither a lunatic nor a fiend: and consequently, however strange or terrifying or unlikely it may seem, I have to accept the view that He was and is God.”[5]
That is obviously not the view of Mormons, but it is the long held view of Christians. I agree with the previous poster- the Mormon god is not the same as the God that Christians worship. (I don’t remember if anyone mentioned that the first known extra-biblical use of the word trinity to describe the nature of God was by Theopolus at the end of the 2nd century)
Mark Kelley
August 30, 2011 at 12:10 AM
I need to point out that it was never my goal to defend the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints in matters of doctrine and theology. I stooped to that level – for it is not something I enjoy – in one message because I really felt that I ought to answer some questions about what I (and other Mormons, although I am certainly not an official spokesman) believe. It is obvious to those who are Mormons – or Latter-day Saints (or LDS) which is really a better nickname – that they are, in fact, Christians, since they know our religion and know who they worship. And it is equally obvious that there are others who will not believe it no matter what.
I should add that there are many lies and misrepresentations about the beliefs, doctrines, teachings, and practices, of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. I have read or seen many such things – I have not always been a member of the Church, but am a convert – and would urge those who read them to be careful not to believe everything they read, see, or hear. Even those who seem to try to be honest and fair get many things wrong (as also things are so often wrong about your churches when written by those outside and who are not believers), and a great many of these things are written deliberately to undermine the Church.
But I do not believe that being a Christian has much to do with one’s membership in a particular church, or subscribing to particular interpretations of such things as creeds. As I tried to make clear in my first messages here, I am a Christian, regardless of what anyone may say, because of Christ. He is my Savior. Without him I am lost, but because of his love and Mercy I have obtained forgiveness. I have been found and rescued, and at the very high price of the Savior’s blood and sacrifice. I owe him everything. He alone is qualified to be my judge, as to whether I am a Christian as well as of everything else about my life. His judgment is the only one that matters.
I spoke up because I would be an unprofitable servant, indeed, if I refused to stand up and testify of the Lord when challenged. This is what I feel when someone says that I am not a Christian. They are wrong, and I know they are wrong, and to sit silently without rebuttal feels to me that I am abandoning the Savior, when in fact I ought to be willing to stand as a witness of him whenever possible. (Peter went and “wept bitterly” after he denied Jesus during his trial; none of us wishes to have that awful feeling of denying the Lord.)
Let me add the words of one of the leaders of our Church, Bruce R. McConkie, a man we consider to have been an Apostle. He stated this in 1985:
“And now, as pertaining to this perfect atonement, wrought by the shedding of the blood of God—I testify that it took place in Gethsemane and at Golgotha, and as pertaining to Jesus Christ, I testify that he is the Son of the Living God and was crucified for the sins of the world. He is our Lord, our God, and our King. This I know of myself independent of any other person.
“I am one of his witnesses, and in a coming day I shall feel the nail marks in his hands and in his feet and shall wet his feet with my tears.
“But I shall not know any better then than I know now that he is God’s Almighty Son, that he is our Savior and Redeemer, and that salvation comes in and through his atoning blood and in no other way.”
You may judge if you think this man, and members of his faith who agree with him and share the same feelings, are Christian or not, but you should know that if your judgment conflicts with he who said, “Judge not, that ye be not judged. For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged,” (Luke 7: 1-2), you may come to regret having done so.
Mark Kelley
August 30, 2011 at 12:21 AM
To nowafonseca: Your comments are very interesting to me, and I appreciate your willingness to discuss these things honestly and with respect for the beliefs of others. These things are of great interest to me as they are evidently to you, also, and I would be happy to discuss them with you. Alas, this is probably not the right place; if you have a suggestion for another place, I would welcome it.
Finally, as an aside, yes, the Latter-day Saints know about and have great respect for Martin Luther. We believe he was guided by God, and I am sure you, nowafonseca, have much that you might add to my – and our – knowledge about him. I would love to hear it.
(And if you do not know it, I should tell you that Joseph Smith – who was very adept at several languages – said that the German Bible as translated by Luther was the best of all the translations he had read.)
Anthony Sacramone
August 30, 2011 at 6:11 AM
Pretty much, yes. Not only from non-Christians but even from within certain Christian denominations.
Will Linden
August 30, 2011 at 12:28 PM
I had to join the New Church (“Swedenborgian”) before anyone told me that Johnathan Chapman (“Johnny Appleseed”) was a (gasp!) MISSIONARY.
But that couldn’t be because it was hushed up… that would be PARANOID!
humble servant
September 2, 2011 at 5:06 AM
@Mr. Kelley, again I do not think anyone here has questioned your personal salvation, we are very aware that is between you and God. The question being debated is whether or not Mormonism as a sect, or LDS, or whomever, are the same as the Christian sect as traditionally defined as tracing it’s origins to the apostles. They are seperate issues, and do not have to extend to a personal attack on one’s salvation. We are saved by Grace, because we need it! I believe that most posting here are driven to post by the same conviction as you, and also can not sit on the sidelines. I am excited that you are interested in Luther, and wish you many great blessings to come!
Mark Kelley
September 2, 2011 at 7:27 AM
To humble servant: I appreciate your comments, but I believe you have it wrong. The question Bill Keller asked is: “Are Mormons Christian, in your view?” To that question Anthony Sacramone answered “No.” That is why I commented in the first place, and it is indeed personal when a person who has been ransomed by Christ is told that he is not a Christian. Would you take it otherwise? I am not angry, frustrated, annoyed, etc., but as my salvation is personal so are such statements. (And I do note that you are not questioning my personal salvation. Thank you.)
But so much of what is said is said in ignorance. Much incorrect information has been posted here about the LDS Church, enough so that I should wonder if people are discussing the Church to which I belong. I came here to proclaim my Christianity to one who said I am not a Christian, and found that I must contend with so much misinformation and so many misrepresentations that it is clear that an attempt to get at the truth is not the goal. I don’t doubt that you all have good hearts and honest motivations, but someone has been feeding you bad information.
Mark Kelley
September 7, 2011 at 11:18 PM
By the way, for anyone still reading this discussion, I found a very good non-LDS answer to the question here: http://www.calledtobefree.org/article.cfm?id=37